User talk:Mstrum

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The Effectiveness of this Collaboration of Work

Before saying anything, I must note that I am relatively inexperienced in Korean. Thus said, some of my criticisms may very well be dismissed with ease. However, I do have something important: the perspective of a beginner. Sure, the memory of that time to you is likely fresh, but I scan over much of the materials present here and find only stiff facts without friendly explanations--the very thing for which you said you wished to compensate through the creation of this project. And so I move onto my point: everything here is quite obviously present for the sake of learners, but the organization of Wikis in general provide only a convoluted database of facts that warrants several hours of simple, cursory examination before any true, in-depth progress is made. This site is no exception. Indeed, then, my criticism focuses more on the structural presentation of Wikis in general rather than your own found here. Alongside this, though, I'd like to ask you to prepare a sort of hierarchy that would proceed through materials in an understandable manner.

I, notably, am attempting at this same goal of availability of understandable information. In almost every way I agree with your vision of such a presence of materials found online, free, and accessible to the everyday learner. First, though, this requires most adequate analyses of the materials you wish to present here. Simple facts and concise explanations will not satisfy the most interested of reasonable learners. Perhaps, then, the benevolent presence of both concision and lengthened pieces to every article so found here is for what I wish. If you wish examples to that of which I speak, I will gladly provide them.

Over the past month I have produced a considerable sum of inferential examinations of Hangul and basic grammar rules, few of which were simply learned through a book. Insensible as that may seem, I find this to be the most effective way to the full understanding of Korean (as well as any language). It seems to me that reinventing the wheel is, at times, a most necessary task--especially when the wheels of others' fashion are octagonal abominations with little use or movement. ^^

Obviously, then, the many materials already available throughout textbooks and online websites lack the explanations I wish to find. As aforementioned, I hope to create at least some portion of valuable articles found as appreciable throughout my progress in learning. If you so wish, all materials I complete to a satisfactory level of my own expectations may be sent to you for revision, criticism, and to possibly serve as addends to the current list of materials here.


Now, there are three propositions on which I would like to focus.

  • First, the organization of this Wiki project. The presentability is indeed lacking to a degree, but I believe I find this so because of my lacking knowledge. Given this perspective, I then ask you to arrange a patterned approach in which a beginner will be appreciative of the effort that was poured into this collaboration.
  • Second, I beg of you to provide full, in-depth explanations alongside the most appropriate partners written with concision. Without such things as this and "tutorials," the scrutiny of this project as redundant will likely continue. Information is key, and the presentation of it is where this key is kept.
  • Third, and as stated last of the above, I wish to offer my own abilities, whatever that may warrant. I do realize that a great many things over which I may go have already been learned by professors and many people, but their publication online seems, at best, to be disappointing. Anyway, feel free to contact me or simply reply to this if you're at all interested.

With thanks and regards,

Galinaros ( Galinaros 05:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC) )

Thanks for the thoughtful comments Galinaros!

  • Yes, organization is always something which is lacking. Especially for beginners. We haven't really catered to beginners yet I would say.
  • Totally agree
  • As a wiki, we are always looking for help. Since we are still relatively young we are not only looking for contect contributers but people like you who have ideas about how we can organize and format the wiki so it's useful to people (which is the main goal)

Definitely say hi to Chris. who's been working more lately on the project. He's very open to changing the organization and if you've got some good ideas we'll definitely implement them!

--Mstrum 07:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Galinaros, thanks for your comments. Could you be more specific on which sections need more friendly explanations? Also sounds like you need some tutorials on how to edit and basically where to get started right? Or am I misunderstanding? The front page basically tells people how they can jump in and contribute, as well as the contributing page. If you could be more specific with examples I could probably help you more.
One thing to keep in mind though is this wiki is still in it's growing stage, while Matt and Jay shin has put in tremendous amounts of time into this wiki, they've been busy lately so I've been handling this on my own with some help from very few contributors. The problem is then editing as many pages as possible to meet satisfactory needs, which is impossible on my own. When the project gets bigger, more people will edit and each page will get better and more accurate with time. A lot of the pages are put in hopes someone else will step in and contribute and add to the work. Anytime I have an idea, I simply create the page so the idea isn't forgotten, then put whatever information I have at that time.
Anyway i'd love to hear the specifics of your problems, perhaps many others feel the same way --DigitalSoju 08:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
@Mstrum
Hey there :) Thanks for the reply.
My primary focus is on a structured approach to actually learning the language. As I said earlier, perhaps an hierarchy of levels in which a certain assumption of knowledge is utilized based on the tier of the level in question. (That is, a sort of model as following, each building on each other in a progressive manner: complete beginner, beginner, intermediate, advanced, professional.) I realize that for which I am asking is a little against the idea of Wiki, but given the idea behind the project, I think it would be most appropriate and useful.
Currently, all of the topics--with the exception of the Hangul section--presented seem to assume that the reader knows absolutely everything else mentioned. Here the idea of a Wiki is very useful with the great many nets of linked pages to provide these explanation, though this has yet to come into full use given the youth of the project. While filling these up is obviously high in priority, I also ask that attention be given to the ease of understanding of such materials. Assuming never goes over well. ;)
Anyway, my primary concern is my insufficient knowledge to be a helpful contributor. I mean, I would love to begin typing explanations to a great many things even if that is with only my current, diminutive knowledge. At the same time though, I am afraid to offer any such pieces in fear of them being utter wastes of time that end as only wrong and perhaps stipulating (I know, I know, people can edit that, but I find it hard to sufficiently structure something when you doubt its factual purity).
@Chris
ohaithar!
You're not so much as misunderstanding me as assuming something I didn't mention. Indeed, I'm not the best when it comes to Wikis, but I did spend a few months arranging a small database onto one a few years ago. I'm sure I can come back to it quickly and, seeing that it's just a manner of organization, that shouldn't be too difficult. But that's not really my problem.
Over this weekend I'll see about creating a list of specific things which I think are either unnecessary or unfriendly. I got slammed with homework tonight so I won't be able to do much just yet.
And a little something to note: I did not intend to criticize everything you have up here already. I am just asking for a more structured approach to concepts and the introduction of them. Think of it as a textbook except online, being updated constantly, and filled with as much information as possible without any regard to page limitations. Something like that and what I mentioned above to Matt are for what I am looking.
@Both/Either of you
Would you mind sharing contact information? If you'd rather it not be "public," send a message over to my e-mail at **** . I have AIM, WLM, Astra, and Facebook. I would simply like to make communicating my ideas a little easier. You're free to reject. :D
Thanks, --Galinaros 21:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I'll send you an email and delete your email on this page so it won't get picked up my a spam bot or by a search engine. --DigitalSoju 23:24, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

hello

matt, it's the webmaster at ezcorean.com I can share my grammar entries with you, which are using the same license as you have (the Creative Commons one), because I just merged in the grammar entries from http://parksguide.blogspot.com/ . I'm referring to the grammar setup at http://ezcorean.com/korean_grammar not to the verb endings which I have. Then may help save a lot of your time cutting and pasting if I can give you the full database dump for those entries?

I could do the same for the endings as well, of which I have about 470 and 790 follow-ups, like you can see at http://ezcorean.com/all_grammar.php . If you wanted to add the explanations or examples I have taken from books, you are welcome to do that, as well.

I understand the concept of community and the sharing of knowledge. Everything great in the world was accomplished by people working together. And I'm glad to see you have the right license. So, I am all about collaboration, believe me, but I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by reinventing the wheel here. The two of you may install the forum you have listed on your to-do page. Maybe you will even be interested in your site in a year. Web sites do come and go, but communities should survive.

It's just a pain to have to add your examples to my already existing entries, because it makes my site a failure. Maybe your wiki approach will be a breaker.

The 3 of us building a community at ezcorean would be possible. My offer is just to use my site, and then build a community over there. If you are in it for pride or the male collection/ownership thing, though, that's can get in the way of collaboration. Or, if you have problems with my site (appearance, maybe, or lack of functionality, or stuff seems broken). However, if you are in it for the money, well, your license is a bit limiting in that area.

My goal is to have us, and that includes other people as well, make a vibrant forum online. I translate Korean sometimes, a few times a week, for a certain company, and I need answers sometimes else I get in trouble when the client complains. So, I have a real need for that. If I saw you had a vibrant forum I wouldn't be making this post here. But, we all do share a sincere interest in Korean. We should figure out some way to get together on this.

I don't give a flying J who owns the domain name, or what it is, or where the server is located. I just want to collaborate with people because, as I said, all great things have been done by groups. One person, or two, does not make a community. Contributing to a community is my payback.


Sincerely,

Joseph


Thanks a lot Joseph, I really like your website. I've used it a lot in the past, it's an absolutely great resource. If you do want to share your grammar database with us, Chris would probably be the better person to talk to. He's overseeing the grammar section, so he might be able to use that.

Quite frankly, I'm only really interested in working on and upkeeping this project. I personally believe MediaWiki is the best way to do this kind of a project, but that's just my personal preference. Me and Chris recognize that there's some downsides to a wiki, but we both believe (assuming I'm talking for Chris) it's the best solution out there. We've only been online for a few months, but the content has really fleshed out to include an amazing breath of information.

If we did want to collaborate, it would probably mean creating a Korean Q&A-type forum we could both administrate. Other than that, I don't really see any way to merge the two projects without abandoning one of the site platforms. That's something I would love to see, but it would definitely take some compromising and and hard work from all sides.

--Mstrum 00:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


First welcome to our site Joseph. I'd be interested in the data dump, however our grammar page names follow a certain syntax and the grammar pages also follow a certain syntax. So even though the dump will save time from copying and pasting, we would also need to delete duplicates of pages already on here as well as reformat them. Also explanations from books probably wouldn't be a good idea since they are copyrighted and on top of that a lot of books tend to put unnatural examples, so on this wiki we try to get a native speaker to mostly write the sentence examples (our member Jay shin has been doing most of them).

Me and Matt feel like we're taking a better and new approaches to learning Korean, as well as combining the best methods we've seen in books and websites, so I wouldn't exactly say it's reinventing the wheel. We've come up with a lot of our ideas and methods based on our own needs and problems we've come across with other sources for learning Korean. Also I cosign Matt on the wiki being the best approach for our project, even though it holds us back in some areas. However we will probably look into making our own custom extensions for our site to overcome those limitations. Also i'm not sure how we would be able to move our site to your site, but we've already got our project established and an easy to remember domain name. We're still in the phase of putting up basic information on our wiki so we haven't tried to advertise it to others, but we have made special plans to do so when we feel the time is right. We've each also setup goals for the future of this website and we'd like to see them met someday. We do appreciate your offer though.

As far as being in it for the money, I'm not sure how that would be possible since there would so many authors on the site and they'd each want a small chunk if some book was ever made from all this. We'd love to have you on board our project to make learning Korean easier for everyone and making the information as accurate and detailed as possible, that will happen as more users join the project and people put in their passion for the Korean language. If you have any other suggestions to make the site better, please let us know. I'm a bit tired right now so don't have time to check for typos, so hopefully I didn't make any major ones --Bluesoju 16:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

guys,

I really believe this site is an oxymoron. A community-based wiki project called koreanwikiproject.com. If you're not inventing the wheel what else can you call rewriting a page about ㄹ irregular verbs? Mine is CC license and if there isn't one on wikipedia.org then I'd be very shocked. And if community ideology is so strong, what is wrong with wikipedia.org ? What this site is is 3 people spending lots of time creating duplicate information, as far as the larger community is concerned. I know it helps your korean study, because I learned by making my site as well. But, I am thinking wider about the benefit to the larger netizens, not just a community called koreanwikiproject.com. And the verb endings, besides that I already have 500 of them and there's a university site out there with a thousand of them (again, with examples from books). It just doesn't seem right for you to have to take your precious time to do this work all over again. Moreover, I understand the webhosting, administration, and content responsibilities become a part-time job. Finally, I am a professional proofreader and translator and I can tell you that it takes a lot less energy to proofread than it does to translate. So, it just really makes me angry to see your talent and hard work and passion being mis-used in this way. I can only wonder what is so great about this site that's different from wikipedia.org, for example, or my site .... I just disagree, I guess.

I have the irregular verb entries done, just take them from my site.

Take my verb entries and mint's example postings and add them here.

You can create a mirror of the entire grammar section .

proverbs, I have a ton of them, but i got them off another site which I linked to but have no idea what the license is (yet).

I also have survival korean, which is missing from your site at this point.

I wouldn't worry about the format differences, db conversions, etc. -- I can shave the skin off an apple with my excellent php and SQL skillsets. No doubt, it would be a lot of grunt work.

the word list examples can be created by a php script which would accept the English words and create html output with the Korean words as part of them, to save much time typing.

Sincerely,

Joseph


I guess we just have to agree to disagree. We like having our own wiki because we can control and change it unlike Wikipedia.org. You can find many examples of other people who have created wikis separate from Wikipedia and have successfully created communities around it. Is it duplicate information? Yeah, a lot is, but not all content is created equal. Websites can have the same information, but one might be more useful if it's presented and organized in a different way. We are creating unique resources, like the most recent linking of Chinese Roots to pages so that you can learn the roots and more vocabulary. What other site does that? The Hangeul Assistant is another great example of a very unique resource that isn't present anywhere else. These are all things that have been very easy to make thanks to not having to worry about creating or heavily modifying the underlying platform. If we had to create a website from scratch and do a lot of coding, that would have been a waste of my time.

Yeah, I totally understand about learning through setting up this kind of website. One of the biggest reasons for me working so hard on this wiki is that I believe teaching is the best way to learn. Is it a waste? Even if no one else used the site or if the site totally crashed and we lost everything, I've personally gained a lot from the experience and would not consider the time I've taken on it as a waste. I looked at all the Korean language websites out there and felt that contributing to them would have been a waste of my time since I didn't really like how they were set up. Chris was like that and I'm sure many others are also. People have different preferences, so we are just giving them an alternative. I don't see anything wasteful or wrong with that. Anyways, good luck with everything,

--Mstrum 07:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)



The creation with this project is due to the dissatisfaction with other sources of material for the Korean language, we can't go change other people's websites or go fix their explanations, provide more examples, provide clearer examples, or provide more natural examples. Since we can't do that, we took it into our own hands and want to provide the better content people need, provide natural examples, clear up misconceptions that aren't explained in books. It's like why are there so many car companies or restaurant chains out there? Because the creators thought they could offer something better than what was already out there. Same with this website.
I think asking what is wrong with wikipedia is a silly question (no offense). Wikipedia has their own agendas, their own rules, their own ideology. A lot of the stuff we want to do there won't be permitted or doesn't fit their project, if I make a Korean vocabulary page for military vocabulary words do you honestly think it would fit on wikipedia? If I put individual Korean grammar patterns on wikipedia do you think those are the type of articles they want?
While it's mostly three of us contributing at the moment, we have to lay the backbone and foundation of this site so others will take the project seriously and join. Do you think wikipedia started out with 1,000+ users from the start? People had to know it was a legit project and that they weren't wasting their time contributing. The site's been up only since February and I think we've done a lot and already surpassed many other sites and we already have unique content you can't find on other sites. As I mentioned before, we haven't even formally advertised our website nor have we worked on it full time.
Matt and I have a vision for what this site will become, and we want to see it grow into that. Other websites are providing the same basic information from textbook sources and Korean no one really uses. For example other websites and books teach the pattern V + 는군요 as an exclamation ending, when in fact no one really uses it like that these days except in specific situations. That's the exact type of thing we want to avoid, teaching useless Korean. Another example is V + 거든요 is always simply explained as "because" when its much more than that. How many websites go indepth with their explanations? Harldy any, they just provide the basic information and leave it up to the reader to figure out the rest. I used to read bad explanations and wish I could correct it, but now since there is a wiki system, people can actually fix the content just as our Korean member Jayshin has already been doing. When we feel we are ready to launch our site we will have many Koreans fixing up the site, correcting details and adding more indepth information. It will take many users and many corrections in the end to get an article nearly perfect, but at least we have that option unlike other Korean language websites out there.--Bluesoju 07:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)




this is a very passionate discussion. IT's nice to see so much passion. Some points are simply wrong. >>> We are creating unique resources, like the most recent linking of Chinese Roots to pages so that you can learn the roots and more vocabulary. What other site does that? My entire open source korean-english dictionary has hanja for every word cross-linked to hanja pages. Have you seen a page like :

http://ezcorean.com/index.php?browse_word=1&cs=ksc&search_encoded=%25ED%2595%259C%25EC%259E%2590&search=%ED%95%9C%EC%9E%90&dpjs=0&from_to=korean-english&cfile=mod_pager&this_page=yes

click the hanja and you go to this page:

http://ezcorean.com/bb_index.php?subaction=vthread&topic=90093&forum=17&switch=h&level=7

the reason you can't edit the grammar entries on my site is BECAUSE YOU NEVER ASKED. The only difference I can see between a wiki and a forum-based grammar site like mine is that the wiki can track changes and stores previously edited versions so they can be reviewed. If I told my software, say, MStrum and Bluesoju were moderators, the thing would be the same as a wiki, only if you messed something up, I'd have to restore from the previous week's backup.


>>>if I make a Korean vocabulary page for military vocabulary words do you honestly think it would fit on wikipedia? If I put individual Korean grammar patterns on wikipedia do you think those are the type of articles they want?


I really can't answer that question. I honestly don't know about wikipedia.org.

>>> problems with V + 는군요 and V + 거든요 (because).

yes, 거든요 is because as a result of an allegation.


거든요 doesn't require an allegation. No allegation below:
A:"어제 왜 안 왔어?"
B:"바빴거든요"
(because meaning)
Some counter examples where it doesn't mean "because" (typed by a native Korean speaker):
"버스에서 핸드폰 잃어버렸거든요." ... (Giving introductory information on his situation, then another follow up sentence to explain why he's bringing up that information)
"제가 시험에서 1등 했거든요." ... (Giving information, then follow up information about it)
"제가 어제 많이 취했거든요. 그래서 머리를 다쳤어요" (Again giving information)
A:"너 변태지?"
B:"전 그런 사람 아니거든요." (Because doesn't make sense in this situation)
A:"신발 벗어야 되나요?
B:"네. 신발 벗고 들어오셔야 되거든요." (Ironically my friend just said this to someone as they were walking in)
If you watch Korean tv or Korean dramas, you will see 거든(요) is used a lot, and in a lot of cases the "because" translation does no work, yet it's the only definition other websites and textbooks say. It's often used to get people to understand something or trying to get them to understand your situation --Bluesoju 09:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Joesp 13:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)  ::

good job. Very nice explanation. You managed to flush out the meaning very well. Sorry we didn't have this conversation on the page for the topic.

we haven't established any basis for collaboration, so I assume if I change my site into a wiki, that will be the first step in working together. I sincerely believe that despite our differences of opinion, that we should bring our sites to the stage where they are mirrors of the same, then we can simply use two domain names. Everything great is accomplished by people working in groups Joesp The best thing I can contribute to your project is the fruits of my individual work, and then in combination, we will become stronger, like Mickey mouse (or is that the 3 musketeers).

So, as a result of this conversation, I can see where my site has been subject to misinterpretation and I will try to fix that in the upcoming weeks. After that, I will revisit your site and talk to you again.

이제 왭사이트 관리에 시간을 투자하는 것보다 9월에 나오는 한국어능력시험에 점수를 잘 나오도록 그 공부에 집중하고 있습니다. 그러니 ... 잘 살고 시간을 잘 활용하면서 사이트를 만들었으면 좋겠습니다.

I'm not sure what changing your site into a wiki and mirroring the sites would accomplish. If we mirror our sites than it's energy wasted keeping two sites the same rather than adding new and unique content, which goes against your wasting valuable time and reinventing the wheel comments before. It would also be a hassle keeping track of the changes between the two and it would take you a lot of time converting the content you already have to make it into wiki format. While collaborating would be great, I don't think this would be an effective way to do so. --Bluesoju 00:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)



I have seen those Hanja pages before. To be fair, the implementation is totally different. That being said, I probably shouldn't have said it can't be found anywhere else.

Also, I have known that people can edit the pages. I just personally didn't want to work in that environment. It's nothing personal or anything, I was just looking for something more wiki-like. One example of a reason wikis are nice? I can easily link to something like without needing to look up how to link to that. Or I could link to computers as another example. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but anything other than a wiki pretty much requires you to look things up to link to them if it's non-trivial.

I know where you're coming from, many of the functionality is technically there. Maybe it's just that we both misunderstand each other's websites. I do believe that our sites offer very different ways to edit and organize things. There isn't really a right or wrong way, it's all just personal preference.

--Mstrum 14:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Joesp 01:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I have no doubt wasted too much time programming functionality into my site. I'm so tired of it, I'd rather study Korean than do that ever again. I just want to get that whole thing off my shoulders. Do you have a way to do bulk uploads without using an HTML interface? Just curious, in case someday I should have the inclination and the time, but not these days Joesp 01:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Matt, do you know if the bot that leaves messages on new user's pages can also leave messages on other pages? Also should we categorize them in the bots user group? --Bluesoju 06:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, I'm not really too sure. Sorry, there was a death in the family so I'm pretty busy doing things for that so I may not be able to do very much until next week. --Mstrum 13:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Video for editing

Need some suggestions on what to put in a tutorial video for editing, here is what I got so far:

Videos

  • I now have software where I can show users how to use this wiki as well as other things like how to install Korean. Any ideas of what videos to make Matt and Jay? Some ideas:
    • Videos on how to use and edit this wiki (English version)
      • First register
      • Talking about recent changes
      • Finding current articles via categories
      • Editing articles
      • Creating articles
      • Read the guidelines before editing
      • Using the toolbar
      • Basic wiki code
    • Videos on how to use and edit this wiki. Korean version:
      • First register
      • How to change the language to Korean
      • Things native speakers can do
      • Talking about recent changes
      • Finding current articles via categories
      • Editing articles
      • Creating articles
      • Read the guidelines before editing
      • Using the toolbar
      • Basic wiki code